*major gritting of teeth*

[rodneyscat]

A little introduction:

In May my oldest will finish secondary school. After that he'll have to pick a specific education. He wants to join the army, but since he'll be 15 when he finishes school, he's too young to join. But for kids like him there's a special 'bridge' education to fill in the gap. Last year we've been to several information days for that specific education and then we heard he was supposed to apply in November 2006 if he wants to join the 2007/2008 class.



So in November I called to request a form of application (they didn't have the forms for that particular year earlier). They told me I caught them right in the middle of a move, so all the forms were in boxes, but they'd send me one as soon as they were unpacked. Of course nothing arrived, so a week later I inquired. They said oops, and they'd send me one that same afternoon. So a week later I inquired again and they said oops some more and yay, the form arrived.

My god the questions in that form! You'd think he was applying for secret service agent, and half of the numbers they were asking we never even heard of. Also there was a long list of things they needed copies of, a form we had to get at the town hall, a form we had to get at school which consists of an incredible list of question that look like a psychological test (questions like 'give 3-5 examples of specific qualities you think you have, and explain' and a two page list of qualities, where you have to indicate how much this applies to you). This form also had a two-page part his mentor had to fill out, with very detailed questions of which I wondered how the hell a mentor is supposed to know that about all 30 students he/she has in class). So it took a while to get this all filled in, to get all the stuff together, to get the mentor to fill in, two weeks of Christmas holiday came between and still there was one question he couldn't answer:

Remember, this is a one year bridge course to fill in the gap between the school he's finishing May, and the thing he really wants to do, which is joining the army. He has to pick between 5 specific fields, and it wasn't clear if what you picked now would also decide what field you'd pick when actually joining the army. Or if you picked a field, if you could switch later. So we had everything ready, and I thought I'd call the information desk to ask about that. The form gives the wrong number of course. They didn't know that yet. So I got the right number, where someone connected me to someone else, and I got reconnected again, and then again, and then they asked me to call back next week, because the person who could answer that question wasn't in. They couldn't tell me when this person would be in, they couldn't tell me if we were still in time with the form. So I freaking flipped and got so angry that if no one was able to answer questions that they were the bloody informationdesk for, how were we supposed to fill in their freaking form?!? I got reconnected again, and this time I was told that:
1) there will be a special information evening next Tuesday, where all the people who can answer all our questions will be together.
2) there's still plenty of time to send in the form
3) they've only had 3 applications so far.

Three applications, for a course where you have to pick one of 5 specific fields. Why were we told he had to apply so early? How can they expect a person to apply in November, when the actual form isn't available before that, takes weeks to get properly put together and is send in December after calling for it three times? If they extended the period of application, why weren't we informed although there are several warnings on the form that if you apply too late, or the application is incomplete you can't get in? Why weren't we told about that information evening? Why does a one year course require a thick envelop of copies, specific attachments and forms with questions that not even specialized people can answer (the one above wasn't the only one, it was just the last one we couldn't answer) that takes weeks to put together. Some of these applications were of the kind you have to pick up personally at places that are only open for a few hours a day, you have to travel to get there, and some were closed during Christmas holiday. And they wonder why hardly any applications come in?

Those are a few of the questions I want answered next Tuesday. After that we'll get to the actual questions.

Obviously this was not 'required reading' for those who come across this entry. But I really needed to get this out of my system. I love my country, but the bureaucracy drives me up the wall sometimes.

Comments

[apple-pi.livejournal.com]

My advice? Make copies of every document you had to acquire, because if this gap-year thing is so hard, applying for the actual military will be worse. :-/

Good luck to your son - I hope things get easier now!

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Absolutely! We made copies of everything, including the questionnaires, in case they come up with 'sorry, we lost it it never arrived, could you fill it out one more time please?'.

I think what makes me extra frustrated is the fact that of course I'm not happy he wants to join the army in the first place (what mother is?), and now we have to go through so much trouble to get him there, it's trying to have to kick open a door I very much want closed.

I always said I'd support my kids in whatever career they want to pursue, but I had things in mind like artistic careers or something that could be considered as not ambitious enough.

[apple-pi.livejournal.com]

Believe me, as a flaming liberal who somehow ended up married to the army, I understand. You're making the right choice, though - he'll do better at WHATEVER it is with his parents love and support. *hugs*

[provisorisch.livejournal.com]

*eyeroll*

That just makes no sense whatsoever... If this is a facility specifically for people who are too young to join the army but intend to do so, wouldn't they want to make it as easily accessible as possible?

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

You'd think so. They also promote it as something especially for kids who haven't made up their mind yet and want to get a taste of it. Basically they get general jobtraining, like electrical engineering or information technology, and then several times a year they'll spend a week doing military excercising in the field, and they have lots of general physical training. This education is also the only one in the country. I somehow doubt my son is the only one of 4 in the whole country who will want to do this, so I'm guessing more people are having problems getting their applications sorted out.

[tristantrakand.livejournal.com]

I'm from halfway around the world, but I guess it doesn't matter where you're from: reading about the red tape you had to untangle made my head hurt real bad.

I hope everything gets sorted out. :)

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

It seems to be sort of a universal thing, this getting tangled up in bureaucracy; people from all over the world completely understand what I'm talking about! Uhm, yay...?

[primula-baggins.livejournal.com]

I hoping that when/if he does actually go into the Army, the fact that he did this one-year thing will make the Army entry a snap. Sometimes that is the case. This does sound awfully frustrating!

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

The biggest problem is that this transition year is a type of education that's covered by a huge organization that regulates every kind of vocational training you can imagine. At some point our government thought that was a spiffy idea that would save money because now you don't need an information desk etc for every separate education. So now they've got one general organization that hasn't got a clue about the separate subsections and doesn't know where to direct. The site alone is a complete chaos where you click around and then end up where you started.

The actual course is set up in conjunction with the army, so I'm sure that transition will be much easier as by then we'll know who to turn to.

[primula-baggins.livejournal.com]

"So now they've got one general organization that hasn't got a clue about the separate subsections and doesn't know where to direct."

Oh, I see. That explains a lot. It's often a mess like that when any organization tries to "streamline" things.

[iolanthe-rosa.livejournal.com]

My blood pressure went up 10 points just reading this post! Poor you. Why do bureaucracies have to be so... bureaucratic? Maybe it's some sort of test of the parents -- if the parents can complete the paperwork, then the child must be above average genetically speaking.

On a different family note - how is your sister in law doing?

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

It certainly feels like a test! And we better passed it...

About my sister-in-law; it's difficult to tell, because she's so in the middle of it. The second operation, where they took all of her breast, has been successful, so at least that's one concern less. To fight the cancer in her lymphe she needs additional therapy. She's started chemotherapy a couple of weeks ago and will need 3-4 more sessions over the course of the next couple of months. She's pretty sick from that, and she's losing her hair, which she'd been warned about. After this she'll need radiation treatment. Time will tell if it will have been enough.

She takes it one day at the time and we all try to stay positive. December 24th we all came together for a family gathering to celebrate my father-in-law's birthday (this was after her second operation, but before the radiation treatment was started) and it was quite emotional, but very, very good. We all laughed a lot and talked a lot. God, I love them all so much!

[iolanthe-rosa.livejournal.com]

Well, my thoughts and prayers are with her - and you. It's so hard watching from the sidelines.

[foxykc.livejournal.com]

wait a minute here. It's the military. It ain't like it IS the Secret Service.

In this country we just make sure you're 18 and you fog a mirror.

Which isn't necessarily a good thing but you'd think that military would be GRATEFUL people want to sign up.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Fogging a mirror, that's the one thing he hasn't had to do! ;)

Turns out their site gives the wrong address for where the information evening is going to be. I called them today to check if we had the address right, and heared they knew about the problem, but couldn't change it on such short notice...

In short; if the US ever need military help, don't expect the Dutch to provide it...

[samena.livejournal.com]

This country... I once obtained an application form for being a flight attendant with KLM and their questionnaire was sort of similar. 'What's your mother's occupation? What's your father's occupation? What's their political view? Are they religious?' Bloody hell! What's that got to do with anything? I mean, I could perhaps imagine them asking stuff like that if I wanted to join the army, but to be a flight attendant? If you want to work for Ici Paris XL, they ask the same kind of stuff, by he way. To sell perfume! And when I wanted to be a daycare 'teacher,' I had to write this long motivational letter, which nobody ever asked me about at the actual intake meeting. *sigh* It happens all the time.

In other words, I kind of know how you feel and I totally understand why you're pissed off. I hope everything will work out fine in the end.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

I had to write this long motivational letter, which nobody ever asked me about at the actual intake meeting.

That's the most frustrating thing about it; to put in so much work for something they'll hardly even look at...

[slipperieslope.livejournal.com]

Bureaucracy is the same everywhere and if I ever catch the bastard that invented it I am going to staple, spindle and xerox him into oblivion.

[noipeh.livejournal.com]

Well this just proves the point, bureaucrats are the same the world over. My favorite story about the vaunted pencil pushers involves the 'great state of New Jersey', which insisted that even though I have a master's degree and can do therapy in all 49 of the other states, that wasn't acceptable to them, they wanted a lower degree with specific class names. When I asked to come and discuss this with them, so that I could present my case, they responded that "We can't do that." Bzuh? So what don't they have, a door or a chair to hold the interviewee?

Idiots.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Bzuh? So what don't they have

What about ability to improvise? Common sense? *rolls eyes*

[hobbitlove83.livejournal.com]

AMEN, darling Bee!!!

*enjoys the image of the bastard being sucked into a red tape drain*

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Sounds good, count me in.

[starfishchick]

Oh, red tape! So much fun!!

Hope the meeting goes well and answers your questions!

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

I think the meeting will do that; the one thing I have good experience with is with the information days, when all the people who actually know the answers are actually gathered together :)

[msilverstar]

Oh so hard to go through all this crap for something that you really don't like. Maybe it will all put him off the military?

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

I don't think this specifically will put him off, but I'm hoping lack of privacy and having to miss his gadgets will! (They'll be in the field 5-6 times for a week.)

[ex-darklock507.livejournal.com]

I don't understand how bureaucracies accomplish anything positive. This is what it has been like for anything/everything I've tried to accomplish through bureaucracy. No one knows what anyone else is doing and the citizenship is held responsible for it.

Perhaps, through this transition year, he'll decide not to into the army?

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

No one knows what anyone else is doing

That's the biggest problem: once you get the right person on the phone, you get your answers, but until then... They're all friendly enough and trying to be helpful, but not succeeding a lot of the time alas.

I lit up seeing you use the word 'transition', because that was the word I was looking for! It's hard explaining anything in English when half the time I have a hard time using the proper Dutch word, or (even worse) the Dutch word can't be translated because it's something specific for the Dutch situation!

Being frustrated with bureaucracy is universal though, so I guess people understand the gist of it, even if they don't get the details ;)

[hobbitlove83.livejournal.com]

Jeez!
You're absolutely right: the amount of red tape in our wee country is just unbelievable!!

Here's to hoping you'll be able to cut it!!!

Good luck to you and your son!

*hopeful hugs*

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Vroeger had je verschillende instanties en scholen voor verschillende beroepsopleidingen. Tegenwoordig is administratief gezien echt alles op een gigantische hoop gegooid tot een onoverzichtelijk monster genaamd ROC. De site alleen al is een nachtmerrie om door te ploegen en iedere vraag wordt voordurend naar iemand anders geschoven, want niemand weet wie waar van af weet. Ik krijg niets dan zeer vriendelijke en begripvolle mensen aan de telefoon, maar voor een fatsoenlijk antwoord moet je erg veel doorzettingsvermogen en een lange adem hebben.

[loreley-se.livejournal.com]

Good grief! That is ridiculous...

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and yesterday we checked their site, to see if the information-evening was at the address we thought it would be. There's the address where the information desk is (and I understood on the phone that this is where the evening would be), and there's the school itself where last year's information-days had been, so I wanted to make sure I got it right.

Of course on the site a completely different address is mentioned...

So I called them, and they said the evening is at the address where the information desk is, and that they've been having complaints and questions because of the faulty information at the site, but they couldn't change it on such short notice...

These people are being paid for this.

[mother2012.livejournal.com]

If it weren't so frustratrating, it would be hilareous. Know and comedians looking for material?

Very much looking forward to Wednesday's post.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

It really is material for a potentialy hilarious skit! Nicely matching icon you've got there :D