Stargate Atlantis season 3 WTF?!

[rodneyscat]

I'm 15 minutes into the second episode of the third season, and I'm not sure if I want to go on.

I hate John for being so cold about shrugging off Lincoln. His irritated 'we've been over this a few times' made me go 'WHAT?!?!?' Carson at least feels some compassion. I feel like stomping that smirk off of Ronon's face when he says that 'they'll start feeding on each other'. God, I never liked the guy anyway, but this is pushing it into downright hating him, I don't care what his past is, he's talking about Wraith feeding on Wraith turned human who don't even know what their past is!!

Tell me, is it worthwhile watching this? I loved the first episode of this season, and I cheated by watching the 8th one ahead of time, but I don't think I want to watch any more if I actively have to hate some of the main characters.

THEY FUCKING PUT MICHAEL THERE ON THAT PLANET, IN THAT TENT!!! What the fuck, fucking, fuck are they thinking?! Because they've bloody stopped feeling that's for sure.

Jesus wept.

Comments

[melloniel.livejournal.com]

Yeeaaah, basically everyone's reactions to that episode have been "ETHICS? WHAT ETHICS?" I can fanwank/meta everything, but it's mostly just better if you pretend 3x01 and 3x02 never happened. Just pretend you're pushing a big ol' reset button when 3x03 comes around. It does get better, and it's worth it, I promise.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

*giggles* oh god that icon... Yeah, sometimes I have to remind myself that it's just tv. Part of what upsets me is that I watch this stuff to escape reality, and the idea of 'I don't know what happens to Others, as long as We are safe and warm and well fed' is the kind of reality I'm trying to escape from every now and then. So yeah...

I really liked 3x01 by the way, but I just tried watching another few seconds of 3x02 and Michael was being all understanding and sensible and trusting and I couldn't stand it anymore. If I just skip this one, will I miss some major plotline later on that isn't repeated in the 'previously on SGA' bits?

[zikade.livejournal.com]

lol, these two episodes were the first one I ever watched of Stargate Atlantis, and it intrigued me, especially *because* the people were flawed, and that I could feel with the enemy. That is something that is not happening often, lol.

I don't think you will miss much in terms of major plotline for later. Except if you want to know what happens to Michael.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Oh it's intriguing all right, it's just that there are characters I've grown to love over the series, acting in a way I can't possibly relate to or sympathize with. In real life I would have turned my back on Carson way back when he injected Rodney with that gen, because I'm against anything like that in rl. It's way more complicated than that in rl of course (when people start saying 'what if it cured your kid's cancer), and I really don't want to give it quite that much thought in fantasy, so I can go along and accept more and more easily in the series, but at some point the heroes become so flawed they're no heroes anymore, and I think I'll have to take melloniel's advice, push the reset button and just pretend it never happened. It's just a tv series after all, and I think I'm not harming anyone by pretending they're all real nice people.

I watched the rest of the episode by the way. Plus the two following it. So far season 3 is my least favorite season, so I'm curious if they'll manage to keep me interested.

[zikade.livejournal.com]

oh, the one after that is irrestistible, right? Oh that one is a bit embarassing, but I love certain very funny scenes, especially the one where John and Carson are in the puddle jumper, and the latter is going through detox. Sheppard has such social skills (well, not really, lol).

Just you wait until Sateda (squee!) , Progeny and ... The Return part 1 (squeeeeeeeeee )

[melloniel.livejournal.com]

I'm so sorry, this got long. XD

but at some point the heroes become so flawed they're no heroes anymore

That does make sense, but I think for me? SGA are not the heroes. They're the more normal guys. They're like a second string SG-1 (the SGC would never send SG-1 on a mission where they thought they wouldn't come back. Everyone that went to Atlantis was expendable.), the guys who aren't clear cut heroes, who have flaws and who eventually have what it takes to keep on surviving in the Pegasus galaxy. If it means getting down and dirty, muddying up ethics that are applicable more on Earth than they are with aliens who want to suck the life out of you, then they will.

By the end of s2, they've become so much more like the other planets in the Pegasus galaxy that have found a way to survive with the Wraith in the galaxy. (see: suicide kids, the Hoffans, the Genii) They're living out what it means to live in Pegasus, and frankly, I find it all just fascinating.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Well, with 'heroes' I didn't mean it in the classical sense of the word, but more as in 'the people I sympathize/identify with', and in that sense that feeling got shaken when watching episodes 'Michael' and 'No man's land' and it got some serious dents with 'Misbegotten'.

They're living out what it means to live in Pegasus

That's a very good point. And yeah, I remember from the beginning, how they looked with wonder at other people. How they were taken aback by the ways in which other people tried to ward off or defend themselves against the Wraith. And now they find themselves in a position where they (have to) do things they never would have done under different circumstances.

[apple-pi.livejournal.com]

You are right that those episodes are horrifying in terms of (lack of) ethics. That said, I think it's an interesting thing, really (if really uncomfortable) - it makes it very plain how hardened they are becoming by their precarious situation in Pegasus. Later I was rewatching "The Brotherhood" and I thought, "If this episode had happened in S3, John would have shot Kolya in the head in the last scene." And of course the question is, would I think (looking back) that was a good decision? ...Yeah, probably. It's all very interesting. Do press on, though - the first couple of episodes are not my favourites of S3 at ALL, even aside from the terrible ethical breaches.

[zikade.livejournal.com]

I disagree with your "John would shoot Kolya in the head" idea. (headshots do not happen on TV anyway) John never had a problem killing the Wraith, and Michael is a Wraith after all.

Kolya on the other hand is a human, struggling to fight the Wraith as well. I am not sure why John didn't kill him at that time, probably he guessed that he would need the Genii later.

Well we know, after "Common Ground", that John is ready to kill Kolya now.

But you are basically right, that the people have hardened in the pegasus galaxy. No following of the Geneva convention, but we heard John reaction to that.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that they've arrived at a point where compassion is not a luxury they can afford anymore. I think it's mostly a matter of: do I want to watch this any longer? I'm watching tv partly (mostly?) to escape the harsh reality, because I live in peace, freedom and plenty, but I'm acutely aware that loads of people on this earth aren't and I'm quite incapable of doing anything significant about it. So yeah, I love it when in fantasy people get rescued in the nick of time multiple times, something goes wrong occasionally ('whoops, blew up an uninhabited planet there!'), but ultimately can get away with way more than realistic.

Reality and fantasy work quite differently where it comes to moral dilemma's. In fantasy I can snicker about Rodney secretly taking some of Lucius's drugs in order to let John run for him and have a shot at Tayla, in real life I would despice him for it to the point that I find it an unforgivable act. I'm not sure where sga is heading, and I'm watching it now with a certain suspicion, but the very last scene in episode 4 (John: 'Who is flying this thing?!?' Rodney: 'Me. Oh...') makes me hopeful (that's the point where I'm now).

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

I disliked that episode, too, and as you see, so did almost everyone else. S3 gets amazingly better, though; some episodes are stunningly good.

I think Pi brings up an interesting points about SGA: although I have less than zero respect for the producers of the stargates, two writers (Gero and Binder) seem to be paying close attention to things like continuity, and how people in those circumstances would change. One's ethics would evolve, and I think Pi's right: John would shoot Kolya in the head without a second thought, especially after what happens to him because of Kolya in S3 (trying not to spoil you too much).

Anyway, hang on to your hat. It's a bumpy S3 ride, most of it uphill.

*loves that you and Pi are in SGA!!!*

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

Apparently I've managed to avoid more spoilers than I though. Possibly because I'm catching up faster with watching the eps than I'm with reading the fics, and that's how I get most of the spoilers. After watching this episode (because I watched it to the end after reading the reactions I got here, and also watched episodes 3 and 4) I went looking for more discussion among the fans, and found out I wasn't exactly the only one feeling the way I do. The thing that got to me most I think is that I haven't seen much of that around, for several reasons: just a small group of people on my flist watch sga, only a few of those actually comment on the episodes in their journal, and those I've only friended recently, after these episodes aired, so I have to actively look for comments on specific episodes, which I didn't to avoid spoilers.

Long story short: most of what I've seen is enthusiastic squeeing about the cuteness that is John & Rodney, and not much critical notes about the not-so-cute sides of these characters. Not to mention all the others. So I was starting to wonder if I was the only one being appalled by the way this particular story-line was evolving. It's quite a relieve that's not the case, that we don't approve of everything they do, because 'they're so cute yay'. I'm curious what the writers think of this all, if they're aware of what the fans think of this, if they do this on purpose to shock the audience enough to keep them interested and talking, but not too much to make them turn away in disgust. I'm already curious if any of this is going to be in the dvd-commentaries, what the actors think of this all.

Anyway, I'm still in, but I think I could use an episode where I can sympathize with them again. Rodney lying on the ground with his laptop because he can't sit, John making a joke about it and them agreeing it's actually a lame joke, stuff like that.

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

As you well know, I tend not to comment in my LJ about SGA, except for the very occasional essay, so in that regard I've been a bad friend to you. Now that you're getting the newsletter, it should be easier to find the kind of commentary you're looking for, I hope.

The ethics of S2 and some of S3 is very, very shaky. If I trusted the producers of the show, I'd think they were trying to take SGA somewhere rather Battlestar Gallactica-ish, which would be fabulous. Right from the beginning, we've seen hints of what John's capable of -- I think his behavior can be traced to his deep loyalty to the people he perceives as family. If there's a theme to S3, it is family, and what constitutes it. That's why I'm so in love with S3; it's one of the key questions in my life (and fanfiction).

I, too, am anxious to hear the DVD commentary about the ethical questions raised by SGA. Or if there will be commentary about it.

I could use an episode where I can sympathize with them again

Oh, there are many, esp in the first half of S3. What a season that was! I haven't been so happy about a television show since early X-Files day.

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

so in that regard I've been a bad friend to you.

Oh god nonononono!! If something I said in my reply made you think I feel that way, then I'm coming across all wrong. I know where to find the discussions now, but this entry was more about wanting to vent/share my emotions than about needing information; I first needed to get the upset part out of the way before I could go and see what people I don't really know (all that well) have to say on the subject. I hope I'm not digging myself in deeper now...

In the meantime I've also watched episodes 5 and 6 (I've watched episode 5 two times as a matter of fact, because oh the love!!) and I'm right back on track, and yeah, I totally see what you mean with the family theme.

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

I saw your post and that you're back to feeling the John/Rodney love. *happy sigh*

I'm glad you know where to find discussions; it's fun watching you get into all this.

[randominity.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I liked this particular plot thread (it's not an episode I've re-watched other than to show it to my SO, but that's because it's low on team-love moments, rather than plot issues). I liked that they "went there," to a place where we weren't sure if we could sympathize with our main characters. I felt awful for the human!Wraith, but my objection wasn't to putting them on the Alpha site - it was way before that, when they were converting them to humans en masse in the first place. Not that they put Michael there, but that they injected him against his stated will. But once there, on the planet, I'm not sure what options they had left, Bad Idea notwithstanding. I'd be terrifed/tense that the Wraith would revert, seeing as there's a 100% failure rate with the retrovirus, and that's how I read John's reactions - as being tense and cagey. And yeah, Carson's reluctance just broke my heart.

If you've still only watched 15 minutes of 3x02, I'd at least watch the rest of the episode before deciding whether the show is a bust or not. I'm not sure that the events of the episode will be revisited again in the series, but a lot does happen in the episode's timeline. :/

[rodneyscat.livejournal.com]

I ended up watching the rest of the episode, plus episodes 3 and 4 (where I found 3 also appalling, but for whole different reasons) and I will continue watching, I just had a seriously bad moment there. It's the downside of watching it alone I guess; no one to yell 'omg what are they doing?!?!' with. I needed some instant reaction, and thank goodness got it here in my journal. After reading the replies here, I shuffled back and watched the rest, knowing I wasn't alone in my feelings.

Yeah, a lot has happened earlier that had me go 'what?!' (I'm not happy with the gen-therapy for example and don't like how casually Carson injected Rodney when he was still asking questions, neither did I approve of how they would have let Ronon of all people interrogate/torture Kavanagh, a lot of things happen that I don't approve of). The episode 'Michael' was the first one where I was so much taken aback, that I went looking for other people's feelings and thoughts on the matter (over here (http://dutch-eowyn.livejournal.com/550005.html)). Somehow I thought after 01x03 that they would go in some other direction. I couldn't think of a way how they would solve the shit they were into, but it surprised me they were taking it this far. Let's say, I was hoping for a bend in the road, and a change of direction, but that didn't happen. I sure like it when my heroes turn out to have flaws, but everyone has their point where a flaw becomes something unforgivable and I just can't fangirl them any more. Since they're fictional characters though, I think I can sort of push what happened in these episodes to the background, and have some nice thoughts for John e.a. They'll have to do their very best to regain my trust and fluffy feelings though!